tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8646018.post111618897573945657..comments2023-09-05T05:56:07.500-05:00Comments on St. Casserole: St. Casserolehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/14046979001194772038noreply@blogger.comBlogger10125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8646018.post-1116536585101717412005-05-19T16:03:00.000-05:002005-05-19T16:03:00.000-05:00I share so much of the concern for the PCUSA that ...I share so much of the concern for the PCUSA that you shared. Thank you for your courage in writing this post. <BR/><BR/>Sometimes I feel that the shadow of schism is looming over everything I try to do in my local church and for the presbytery. I am on my presbytery's GA which is struggling to return to vigorously planting new churches in order to offset the denomination's precipitous decline in membership. Sometimes the effort seems futile.<BR/><BR/>My own congregation wants to continue growing but is finding itself in a no-growth situation because the PCUSA "franchise" is weak and has little distinct identity and suffers from much distressing publicity.<BR/><BR/>I'm a conservative on this issue and think that there is a big difference in the way in which liberals and conservatives in the PCUSA view the authority and interpretation of scripture and that is the source of the conflict on the issue of ordination standards as well as the role of the church in the world. It is this difference that has to be addressed rather than the issues that flow from it.<BR/><BR/>Again, thanks for the post.Jody Harringtonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08031378214797420014noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8646018.post-1116375986020024182005-05-17T19:26:00.000-05:002005-05-17T19:26:00.000-05:00I think the point was *not* that biblical support ...I think the point was *not* that biblical support for inclusion doesn't exist, but rather that "the left" just completely ignores the Bible when making its arguments. It/we tend to argue sort of theologically and culturally, which in a tradition that holds up the authority of scripture, is not sufficient.<BR/><BR/>Hope I understood your question, and that that makes sense.reverendmotherhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07457532866087494676noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8646018.post-1116317708457532722005-05-17T03:15:00.000-05:002005-05-17T03:15:00.000-05:00Dear Friends, Thank you for your comments. Reuni...Dear Friends,<BR/> Thank you for your comments. Reunion was in 1983 (thanks RevMother). <BR/> I did not make it clear that it is the fighting which bothers me. Justice for all God's children is the Good News whether we are comfortable with this or not. My pity party was with hearing the issue for years with no resolution and seeing people drop by the wayside in exhaustion, despair and anger. I have trouble seeing what the future church will look like, too. You are all articulate and thoughtful. Thanks for letting me be part of the journey.<BR/>Guess what? I have a presbytery meeting today. I wonder what the brothers have to say today....St. Casserolehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14046979001194772038noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8646018.post-1116287148292040662005-05-16T18:45:00.000-05:002005-05-16T18:45:00.000-05:00This is a tedious issue but it's a mandatory discu...This is a tedious issue but it's a mandatory discussion. We Episcopalians are looking schism squarely in the mouth these days.<BR/><BR/>In my weaker moments, I'm all for the schism. I'd like to tell the "conservatives" (for lack of a better label) to get the heck out and not let the door hit them in the butt on the way.<BR/><BR/>In my better moments, I just want them love those people into a new place. I'm such a wide-eyed idealist. But I'm cynical enough to know that it's not going to work.<BR/><BR/>And in my smarter moments, I know that it's not about the Gospel, so you can't give them a new vision or love them into a new way of being. It's about an institution. For those out front, it's about power, control, and protecting that institution. It's about manipulating the folks in the pews to think that it is about telling the truth in love or loving the sinner but hating the sin or some other such BS.<BR/><BR/>I wish we could stop talking about people winners and losers. In a public forum on gay marriage, I asked the speaker "What if there were no winners or losers? What if we all just allowed people to live as who they are, with no challenges from the government?" Her reply? "Then your side would win." <BR/><BR/>You see what I mean.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8646018.post-1116283000683856582005-05-16T17:36:00.000-05:002005-05-16T17:36:00.000-05:00I explained to my car service driver this morning ...I explained to my car service driver this morning (the entire story will probably show up on my blog later this week)that we Presbyterians actually read the Bible. As a life-long Catholic, he thought perhaps I was the first Presby he'd ever met, and he wanted to know what kind of religion that was--as in, "Do you believe in Jesus?"<BR/><BR/>We have a long way to go...within and without.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8646018.post-1116254546086863662005-05-16T09:42:00.000-05:002005-05-16T09:42:00.000-05:00I appreciated this post very much. I did have a mi...I appreciated this post very much. I did have a minor correction--I think you meant to say that reunion took place in 1983, not 1883. Would that we had reunited so soon after the Civil War! Excuse me, the War of Northern Aggression. ;-)<BR/><BR/>I think I blogged about this in Feb., but I met with a group of liberal and evangelical/conservative pastors who'd all graduated from the same (PCUSA) seminary within the past couple years. Learned many interesting things. For one thing, the particular guys (and they were all guys, as it happened) there from the conservative "side" of the ordination issue did NOT feel that ordination of homosexuals was worth splitting the church over. I was surprised and pleased. At the same time, they feel that a split is absolutely inevitable. Apparently there is already a "shadow denomination" structure being put in place--curriculum being written, etc. I was shocked and dismayed.<BR/><BR/>At the same time, I think they were shocked that we libs actually care about the Bible and seek to be led by scripture on this issue. You are absolutely right that the pro-inclusion folks have done an extremely poor job articulating their position biblically. I think it can be done.reverendmotherhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07457532866087494676noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8646018.post-1116246356233089032005-05-16T07:25:00.000-05:002005-05-16T07:25:00.000-05:00Tip O'Neil said, "All politics are local". Churche...Tip O'Neil said, "All politics are local". Churches mirror the political world and we don't live in Mayberry anymore.<BR/><BR/>There is no longer "middle ground", amicable solutions, and "loyal opposition". Our world argues by villifying the opposition. <BR/><BR/>In church life, can you say that (a) God chooses who will be called to the ministry, not me; (b) that you know that the ordination of certain people is inflammatory ( whether it was Blacks in the pre-60's, women in the 70's, or Gays now); (c) that you believe that this issue will be a non-issue in the future; and (d) if this is true, why not move slowly, amicably, and lovingly toward that future.<BR/><BR/>You then are villified by both extremes. Do these sides wish peace or do they wish to win?<BR/><BR/>I believe that most arguments occur because of fear and distrust. The fear and distrust in our churches for the larger church and for mediation and middle ground and the larger picture--well, these are the bugle calls for splintering.<BR/><BR/>Sorry for the longer post,<BR/><BR/>ExpeditusAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8646018.post-1116213280548958702005-05-15T22:14:00.000-05:002005-05-15T22:14:00.000-05:00Presbyterian Denominations -- the List of such tha...Presbyterian Denominations -- the List of such that I know of that exist in Georgia -- most of which are divided on this issue or decidedly against. None of these endorse the ordination of Gays. (I'm such a geek.)<BR/><BR/>The Presbyterian Church In America<BR/>The Presbyterian Church U.S.A.<BR/>The Associate Reformed Presbyterian Church<BR/>The Bible Presbyterian Church<BR/>The Confederation of Reformed Evangelicals<BR/>The Evangelical Presbyterian Church.<BR/>The Federation of Reformed Churches<BR/>The Korean-American Presbyterian Church<BR/>The Orthodox Presbyterian Church<BR/>The Cumberland Presbyterian Church<BR/>The Reformed Church in the United States<BR/>The United Reformed Churches of North America<BR/>The Reformed Presbyterian Church of North America<BR/>The Reformed Presbyterian Church of RussiaTheresa Colemanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12134175277230355640noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8646018.post-1116207157948334062005-05-15T20:32:00.000-05:002005-05-15T20:32:00.000-05:00This same issue is tearing up our denomination, as...This same issue is tearing up our denomination, as well. It rips at the fabric of our society. It's just the latest issue in a long list of issues in human history. It really is interesting that a hundred years ago the issue was "secret societies" and the Masons. It was slavery before that and in between the ordination of women. There always is an issue and there are always strong opinions. <BR/><BR/>Us idealists want it to be different but frequently are disappointed. But we must continue to dream of that perfect world. <BR/><BR/>Makes me blue that I still struggle with the ordination of women issue -- both internally and externally. I grew up AR Presbyterian and left 20 years ago over this issue (which is still being debated, btw.) I struggle with it internally b/c my father never supported me in my decision to enter the ministry. And even though I belong to a denomination that ordains woman, it's a tiered system. Women in my conference are usually either delegated to small rural churches or are associates at larger churches with a male senior pastor. <BR/><BR/>I have actually heard a male senior pastor call his associate pastor and music minister as "my girls."<BR/><BR/>Today was interesting because I went to an event with several (20 or more) male clergy and 3 female ministers (myself included). The females are spoken to by the brethren until some higher status male walks in, the conversation dropped and the posturing begins. If we object, we're called "pushy" and "too bold." If we don't we lose integrity. It's such a balancing act -- I thought I left this behind in corporate America..... <BR/><BR/>To be honest, most of my external affirmation and support comes from people of color or women clergy. I begin to agree with James Cone that God is Black. And Gay and a woman. There are days that I want nothing more than to go back to being a stay at home mother or teacher. It grieves me so much that the system that we call church is so broken.<BR/><BR/>This was long... sorry!Theresa Colemanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12134175277230355640noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8646018.post-1116196232905824232005-05-15T17:30:00.000-05:002005-05-15T17:30:00.000-05:00Churches are human institutions and as such inhere...Churches are human institutions and as such inherently flawed and full of this kind of stuff.<BR/><BR/>I'm Catholic so I know of what I speak. Heck, in our church we're not even "allowed" to discuss the ordination of women.<BR/><BR/>Hang in there. We're working on God's time, not ours.Susan Rose Francois, CSJPhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09801188192396918147noreply@blogger.com